Updated Oct.15
I was waiting for this moment. If you think that stabilizers (aka gyros) should be banned for F3B/F3J/F3F I guess with high level of certainty you can fall asleep relaxed.
Update!
Take care, there is mail running to your NAC FAI CIAM Delegate from RCS Sub-committee chairman. Contact your delegate and validate what he wants to vote…
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Dear Friends,
At present we experience a kind of technical revolution. The electronic stabilisation devices (hereinafter gyros), which were not working well in the past, are today effective, cheap and readily available.
Many years ago, when rules for F3B, F3J and F3F classes were created, the authors could not imagine the development of electronic stabilisation devices. For this reason we have an unsatisfactory description of allowed means in the FAI Sporting Code at present.
The German proposal for general banning of gyros, which was prepared for clarification of the unhappy situation, was not accepted at the last CIAM Plenary Meeting.
We now live with the doubtful wording of the F3B, F3J and F3F rules and need an early clarification. Unfortunately decisions may be taken only by the CIAM Plenary Meeting or by the International Jury. Both decisions concerning the gyros would be too late. CIAM Plenary Meeting needs more than one year (Rule Freeze not included) for processing of a proposal. The International Jury has the right to interpret such rules which are not quite clear, but it may act only at the competition. Such decision is too late for competitors who must prepare their models and piloting skill much, much earlier.
The CIAM FAI Subcommittee has no right to take such decision, because the International Jury is independent, bound only by the FAI Sporting Code and higher FAI Documents. Still I believe that the CIAM FAI Subcommittee may prepare a recommendation which, at our present situation with the gyros, is very necessary.
Therefore please send me your opinion concerning the interpretation of the relevant paragraphs in the RC Soaring Volume of the FAI Sporting Code.
F3B
According to paragraph 5.3.1.1
(Definition of a Radio Controlled Glider: Model aircraft which is not provided with a propulsion device and in which lift is generated by aerodynamic forces acting on surfaces remaining fixed in flight, except control surfaces. Model aircraft with variable geometry or area must comply with the specification when the surfaces are in maximum and minimum extended mode. The model aircraft must be controlled by the competitor on the ground using radio control. Any variation of geometry or area must be actuated at distance by radio control.)
the electronic stabilisation devices are allowed forbidden
F3J
According to paragraph 5.6.1.1.
(Definition of a Radio Controlled Glider: A model aircraft which is not provided with a propulsion device and in which lift is generated by aerodynamic forces acting on surfaces remaining fixed. Model aircraft with variable geometry or area must comply with the specification when the surfaces are in maximum and minimum extended mode. The model aircraft must be controlled by the competitor on the ground using radio control. Any variation of geometry or area must be actuated at distance by radio.)
the electronic stabilisation devices are allowed forbidden
F3F
According to paragraph 5.8.2.
(Characteristics of Radio Controlled Slope Gliders: …Addition of ballast (which must be located internally in the model) and/or change of angles of setting are allowed. Variation of geometry or area is allowed only if it is actuated at distance by radio control…)
the electronic stabilisation devices are allowed forbidden
Thank you in advance for your answer.
Best regards
Tomas
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Using 3D gyro/stabiliser is shaking with F3X arena now. There are some interesting points of views you can watch at RCGroups or you can read personal attitude of Pierre Rondel. Longer time I was thinking about this phenomena and yesterday I installed that mysterious box in to my Stinger. Some of my thoughts about using such device in F3X model you can read out of my communication with Tomas Bartovsky (CZE FAI CIAM Delegate; FAI CIAM RCS sub-committee chairman) and Erkki Arima (FIN FAI CIAM delegate) see bellow.
You should reset 3D stabiliser with model leveled.
Hi Tomas, Hi Erkki,
first of all I’d like to appreciate Tomas to Cc me in your communication. Thanks.
Well, gyro… Maybe not only gyro but basic principles of RC soaring are now somehow questioned?
Thousands words on RCG and tons of OT contributions there. Question is who of them was ever using gyro in F3X machine. I chose different approach. Yesterday I spent full day with F3B Stinger and gyro on airfield.
Simply; I’m still shocked now! I’m not top ten pilot but I’v enough confidence to say that I know my model quite well. I fly duration CG usually about 98mm. All other guys flying this model say that I’m crazy. They fly 93-95? Maximum.
When I left airfield today I measured 106mm (I removed 55g from my nose!). You both are respected and experienced modellers. I’m sure you know what I want to say.
Without gyro never you could use such rear CG on this model. Just imagine how easy and pleasant was flying this configuration (gyro
active, CG 106). Excellent good air signalling (no claimed gyro thermal masking) generally mild-characteristics model for experienced pilot.
I could control thermal turn only by ailerons. Model was keeping accurate balanced precise turn. W/o gyro absolutely no chance with such CG and model setup (TE camber).
Then I started to fly distance; smooth, straight “point and relax” trajectory. Only be ready for very efficient turn. Simple as that.
In first flights I wasn’t sure what will happen during landing phase. You know far back CG, unexpected behaviours etc. I was landing w/o gyro and a bit fighting with landing path while my non-linear big butterfly (throttle stick)->elevator mix is tuned for different CG.
Finally I selected 3D mode of gyro and started to land…just imagine you only work with brakes (big butterfly), no touch of elevator. Model was just keeping straight no side-movement landing path. I can imagine how many models of F3F guys in Arcona’s rotor could be rescued.
From my testing I have altitude logs, vario logs, stick movements logs i.e. nearly everything (so far no IAS log, it’s boring that Prandtl probe installation stuff etc., I was in hurry, permanent rain forecast). Simply I can prove my words.
Making long story short; using gyro in F3B/J/F and any other RC “classic” soaring discipline is absolutely not about pilot skills; not at all.
Tomas, you know me. I’m ready for really any gadget not only on board. Yesterday I was taking, installing and flying mentioned gyro just out-of-the-box. There many options and many of them are not so clear for me, so far. I can imagine special version for any F3X discipline. Once gyro will be allowed, never F3X will be as before.
So, I wanted to give you slight technology insight to whole gyro matter.
Not only in my opinion current wording and spirit of F3B/J/F rules declare clearly that device like gyros are not permitted. As stated bellow by Tomas there are some possible interpretations saying different.
Tomas, in few days I will send you open letter of Czech NAC RC Soaring committee asking you to generate at next CIAM FAI RCS committee meeting unambiguous statement to whole matter respecting fact that Czech NAC RCS committee is simply against any misinterpretations of current rules and spirit of RC soaring. We treat gyros and any other similar device as not allowed. I will ask you to defend implacably this Czech NAC attitude.
Especially I would pinpoint F3F as somebody is maybe missing some more precise words in current F3F rules. Spirit of slope side flying is simple and there is no discussion that gyros could ever be allowed. It would kill slope side flying forever.
I can imagine that gyro would rescue many F3F gliders in strong/turbulent conditions during landing. Our F3F friends would deserve this. My fresh experience is evident. Barely you will find a way to allow gyro only for F3F landing phase.
I will recommend same position (gyro banned for F3B/J/F) to all RC soaring NAC committees. They should talk to theirs CIAM FAI RCS
delegates and in coming November meeting ban gyros for ever. We don’t need any rule modification, just simple statement, clarification.
If pilots want to use these gadgets there are already unlimited FAI categories today available. They are welcome.
Best Regards
Roman Vojtech
Hello Roman,
Many thanks for your post on RCgroups. I liked very much because you are pragmatic in your approach. If I understand well, the mail above has been sent by Tomas, as a sort of survey ?
This is a great initiative if it can speed up things and finally clarify the controversy.
Again, thanks for your involment in this debate.
All the best,
Pierre
Hi Pierre,
no problem. Yes, sent by Tomas as sort of survey. Eager to know results? Me too (smile)
All the best
Roman
Roman,
When I see the poll on RCgroups, I’m afraid people express their wish, but doesn’t answer Tomas’s question which is the understanding of the current rule.
For me, this is a big difference.
We can understand that, at the moment with the current wording, gyros are allowed, but be against them.
Personnally, I think that gyros are allowed in the current rules, and I don’t have opinion about the futur. I will apply the rule decided by the CIAM.
Cheers,
Pierre
Pierre
I had the same thought exactly. No wonder there is a question about whether gyros are allowed (they aren’t btw!). It seems like people don’t like to read.
Roman
What effect did it have on launch. I confirm you can’t fly this model at 106mm under “normal” circumstances.
Tom
Nice testings. It’s very good to see someone actually trying to understand something to take a side with some knowledge.
In a nutshell, I believe that gyros should be banned simply because it gives inputs on the plane surfaces, and that’s something only the person holding the transmitter should do. During a RC contest, we are trying to know who is the best one on the control of a miniature glider/plane/heli/boat. If you involve a machine to do a part of this job, you no longer can say that the pilot is the full responsible for the result of it.
Pierre,
I share all your feelings, doubts and worries. Absolutely same status for me. I have no problem with any gadget, I was here always one the first to try anything possible. Everything changed for me just after my gyro one day test.
Do you know what I realized? Do you remember these feelings when…
It’s steel sky, crap weather, you are flying fly-off, you had scheisse launch, you are flying really far away and still sinking but somewhere on horizon your rival is circling in thermal. You have to follow him no other option. In your head is running thousand acclamation marks, every half turn you are loosing than gaining, every half turn you don’t see model, you have fear that model must stall every second… but at the end you come back in time and you are landing 100 points. Do you remember this feeling? I remember, forever.
With stabiliser you will handle such horror with second hand in your pocket and you will not remember this flight, coz it was same as hundred others. No joking.
Typhoon Race in Asia. Wind 20m/s in gusts even more. Model is on FAI wing load limit, full of tungsten. On left base the turn is good you are accelerated, but right base is trap! Just slightly more elevator, different turn diameter and you are finished. In your head is running thousand acclamation marks, you have only 10 laps to make your choice. You want to be fast but there is no option for mistake. You got 1000 for this flight while 6 models of your rivals were destroyed. You was smart and experienced enough to know that “Who wants too much, has nothing”. Do you remember this feeling? Me not, I was not at Typhoon Race (laughing).
With stabiliser well tuned for F3F 90% of all your troubles are settled. Device is so smart that it will not allow stall, spin, it will correct any substantial deviation from straight trajectory in simple “point and fly” way. No joking.
Really bumpy wind, eeehhh. You are approaching to finale. Model is jumping right/left up and down. You know you have to land 10:00:00:00 and 100.000000000 points no other option. 55, 56, 57…suddenly model is in full left wing roll and with nose heading far away from landing spot, zweimall scheisse! …but you are smart and experienced enough and you expected this possibility. Your reaction is amazing, your flash correction and you landed just in time and 100. Yeah, you had a bit good luck, but it’s part of the game. There is frenetic applause from your rivals. Do you remember this feeling, this moment? You will forever coz you just won Dandelion(*) World championship.
(*) Czech F3B community nick name for F3J
With stabilizer everybody is nearly the same, precisely straight boring landing path. Do you want to slow down a bit landing approach? Just pull elevator, no sorrows of stalling, gyro will take care of you. Sudden wind gust from left? No worries, gyro is 100x faster than reaction of the best F3X human beeings, gyro will take care of you. No joking.
Pierre, I’m not kidding, it’s my one day experience with 3D stabilizer. Do we want to go this way in FAI CLASSIC RC soaring disciplines?
Let’s be pragmatic. Let’s stop that word rope-walking games. It’s time to say ALLOWED/NOT ALLOWED
Dandelion World championship
= lol
Hello Roman,
Thanks for your answer. BTW, it seems the situation has now been clarified thanks to the section 1.3.3 that define the category. From this sentence:
1.3.3. Category F3 – Radio Controlled Flight
This is a flight during which the model aircraft is manoeuvred by control surface(s) in attitude, direction and altitude by the flier on the ground using radio control.
For me it is now clear that any device actuating the control surfaces in the back of the flier is forbidden.
I think it will greatly help Tomas to write the recommendation.
All the best,
Pierre
Hi Pierre,
great!
I don’t see big difference comparing to current e.g. F3B 5.3.1.1.
…The model aircraft must be controlled by the competitor on the ground using radio control…
but, OK. For sure by controlling model aircraft it’s expected you can change “attitude, direction and altitude” or something else? It’s only about how and why somebody wants to play word juggling games. Anyhow looking forward to catharsis of this affair.
Take care mate
Hello Roman,
Is flying with gyro so boring that you will prefer not to fly? Flying alone is not the same than in contest.Even with easier or more stable, distance could stay a mess (find the good air, the good time, fly better than your competitor) and so on … It could be a new way to fly but a big part of the difference between good pilotes and other will be maintained ?
I have no particular interest in. I just want the rule to be 100% clear.
The balance between the two modes is not so clear in term of advantage…
Anyway, I love F3B and if the risk to introduce this technology is to loose pilots because they loose interest in their sport, it wont be a good idea.
It is very important to have return on experience like yours to prevent a bad choice for futur …
Hi Sylvain,
Flying with gyro is very pleasant; absolutely masking weak pilot none-skills.
Generally the difference among pilots will drop down thanks to gyro. Our problems with minimum points diff. will escalate. You can fly thermal with elevator and rudder hand in pocket with today’s stabilizers. In next year we will improve features of these black boxes and it will be worse and worse. For example in F3B points gap was so so, in F3J is situation absurd already today without gyro.
I have particular interest; to ban all similar devices. It’s based on my one day experience. Simple.
BTW did you realize what happened in Nardt when only just BTW was gyro allowance confirmed at one a clock morning in first TM meeting? Did you realize what happend when nobody from you (presented at TM meeting) didn’t protest? Did you realize that some people were perhaps aware of possible allowance of these devices and they were ready for using it at WC? Did you realize how huge advantage is to have such box on board?
Providing that some people were this year flying gyros at F3B WorldCup I’m feeling absolutely pissed off. I’m slowly realizing all these facts and looking back to my this year season effort in F3B. That hundred hours on flying field tuning my model nose by 2-3g asking myself whether I will be able to master such configuration; if one stupid 50EUR box would solve it for me forever.
Gime some time, I’v to digest it…
Hi Roman,
I was not telling that I will push in another direction than yours. We just start in France to discuss about… and most of pilots here seems against these tools. In Nardt, it is another story. Nobody is able to confirm if the subjet was expressed or not… I was not sure about what I have eard and as you said, nobody reacts. So at that moment I recorded in my notes that we should check.I really had a doubt especially due to the lack of comments or questions…
Today, our questions are more on how could the organizer checks if it is in or not.
So I started the small survey here and I will ask our representativ if the receive Thomas’s message (I didn’t). After that, I guess we will write him our wishes and we will see.
For us, today’s rules don’t fix the problem clearly enough and we will request for clear decision and clear recommendations (before rules updates)not to spend time in protests…
I am always prudent when first reactions are to refuse changes (or progress). So from a philosophic standpoint, I tried to imagine if we had refused mixers, expo, carbon fiber … but there is philosophy and pilots. I live very happy without gyro until today. I have not reason to push to use them (this was the meaning of my lack of interest in).
Majority seems to be close to 80/100 against … but rules need to be managable and this is one of the problems
Hi Sylvain,
It’s clear to me. If I would be there, I wouldn’t react also, perhaps. We say “After battle, everybody is admiral”. Therefore no flame. At least for me big lesson for future. Maybe we should be more clever and be ready for gyro era early enough.
I don’t see it as big issue.
1.If these devices are banned, 95% of pilots will respect that. Nobody with common sense can afford rule infridgement, disqualification and endless shame. I’m talking especially about top ten, top twenty, top thirty pilots.
2.Part of check-in contest procedure can be your on-board specification. In general only standard receivers (you will state type i.e. no extra functionalites like gyro, alitimeters bulit in), servos, BEC (voltage stabiliser for LIXxx) and electronics switches are allowed. Nothing else on board (sensors of any type, bye bye LOLO for contest off-line flight records). CD has right to check your model anytime; before flight and after flight. Only mad boy would breach such rule.
Too restrictive? But if we don’t allow only using (or info transmission) these sensors there is really no control of anything. Therefore perhaps we should ban even on board presence of all these devices. It would be also the end of all that telemetry rule uncertainty. There is nothing on board, nothing can be missused, nothing else has to be banned in future?
P.S. Thinking how gyro could help me on training either as tunning or rescue tool when finding real limits of my model. Are you aware that during my gyro test flights my CG was far behind Center of Pressure?
I was waiting for this moment. If you think that stabilizers (aka gyros) should be banned for F3B/F3J/F3F I guess with high level of certainty you can fall asleep relaxed.
What moment?
Hi Tom,
I was talking to Tomas and my impression from this meeting is specified above.
Just for the records, in Nardt it was explicitly addressed the gyro issue to the CD and the FAI Jury.
It was no discussion, no questions, just addressing that the german’s proposal to forbid them was not successful in the last PM in CIAM-FAI and the understanding of the code was that anything that is not specifically forbidden is allowed.
So, for Nardt, according the FAI jury, they were allowed.
Clear. I’m afraid gyros were allowed not only for Nardt. For me it would be logical if they are alowed since mentioned CIAM FAI PM.
My suggestion is to remove electronic technology that helps pilots from the model and place them on ground to help prevent organizational problems.
I would suggest to record the TM meetings in video and make them accessible to everybody to prevent misunderstandings or lack of memory when addressing critical items.
BTW, how much expo did you have in elevator in your test with gyro?
Yes, as I wrote above. I doubt if CIAM would have enough courage to approve such measure or rule modification/interpretation.
Why not. No problem for me. It’s not secret meeting of Templars.
Duration, Elevator 0% Expo, Ailerons 12% Expo. I don’t think so it’s critical. This weekend flying gyro again. I made some Stinger wiring modifications (7 hours of work, jesus) to place gyro in CG (bellow joiner). Interesting, I love gyro. I have plans to work more with this device to know it well. Takes me some time.
It is not secret, but seems people do not have good memory after it… you know, I am talking about the political issue that affects the memory!!! 😉
Just curiosity, wasn’t there a time where it was more than one TM meeting at the WC?
And, where is the advantage on placing the gyro at the CG? moving the CG even more backwards? or making it more difficult to detect that you are using one? 😉
BTW, you know that you can wire only the signal cable and get rid of most of the cabling in the model, no?
Good luck and try negative expo… Would like to know how much far to the limit you can go…
1. I wanted to have on-board altitude and speed telemetry at the same time. For this I need also Expander, therefore no space for gyro.
2. Placing gyro in CG is recommended by producer and I can imagine that G vectors are reflecting more precisely model position. Anyhow looks to me there is no observable difference when gyro is in the nose or in CG, but I’m careful with any essential conclusions.
This I want to know, if there is any advantage.
Yes, since ever I’m using only signals if it’s possible
Negative expo only in gyro mode? Reason?
For sure there is an advantage flying with the CG as much backwards as possible. That means flying faster, that makes Re higher, that means lower CL, that means less induced drag… no? But there is a limit you can reach if you do not manage the trailing edge of the wing with the gyro… You know, controlling the Cm to not to use the elevator to generate lift/drag. I think that you do not need a gyro to be able to fly the model at that limit, unless you couple the gyro with the trailing edge of the wing! that will be a NEW BALL GAME!!!
Negative expo??? yes… how much? as much as the processor you have in between your ears can handle…
Negative Expo means less movement of the sticks at the center, when small corrections has to happen, that means faster reaction from the pilot, so, less movement of the model, that means more performance because the deployment of the controlling surfaces are smaller as well, so, less drag… and keeping speed… speed is good… is more Re…
And for turns, you have more precision with the stick out of the center… ahh… you can correct the turns much better…
How much… not sure… but without gyro, it is possible to be between -5 to -15… depending on what link system you have in the servos…
Just think this in this way… like if this is the close loop of a servo system… as sooner the sensors detect the effect of the command given to the motor, much faster you can correct the new position. So, the close-loop becomes faster and more precise, no? This is the same… as soon as you see the model responding to the commands you gave it, much more precise you will become controlling it… There is a limit, and that is what you have to find out. But it works… I know that…
BTW: Do you know how to have about 6s more in distance flight time than most of the other people? maybe enough to get 1 lap more than the others…
No, I don’t know how to have another 6sec in distance flight time. Please advice to my private mail? But looks as only me and you are reading this bloody blog therefore no worries and publish it here (smiling).
If you are using a helper that calls you the signal, you must know that he is wasting more than .2s of your precious flight time, making you to fly longer more than .4s each lap…
And also the improvement you got just moving the CG those 8 mm backwards is giving you an average of 4 laps increase of performance in neutral conditions. Done that test years ago…
I’m afraid my problem is not to loose on B 0.2 but 1.0 minimum. That must be improved. You are correct.
Yes, I have similar experience, but Distance CG 8mm backwards comparing to Duration CG it’s a bit too much.
Your helper takes .2s to react to the light of the panel in every turn. Then you take another .2s to react to his call. If you just focus to reac f3b to the panel and not to your helper,then you have some more time to get an extra lap, maybe enough to win the flight.
And you must use the same cg also for duration, just applying enough flaps to match the cp with the cg. About 1mm. Your model will fly faster and will give you a lot of feedback to know better in what conditions you are flying.
Good to know we are alone in this post. Have a great weekend there…
… no time for forum. I am in the Epoxy/ carbone… trying to finalize new personal model
Much more fun and head free of 3 axes Gyro stories
franpr
Nov 1, 2013 at 16:55
Sounds good, not easy to listen signal by me as pilot in all that Distance mess and noise (e.g. in F3B Munchen there are no signals at all)
Roger.
Yeah, I prefer talking face-to-face. Pusinkus
sylvain
Nov 1, 2013 at 19:47
Sylvain, if you are in Epoxy/Carbon just think about possibility to laminate in gyro already in molds. Could be useful next year (smile).
No real need. I fly with graupner hot …no need for more place!
I dismould this evening. Very impatient! Firt prototype had trouble with paint. Hope this time, it will be ok. http://f3news.big-forum.net/t6433p345-en-preparation-chez-nous-projet-de-monotype-f3b-beep-beep
No news yet about french pilots survey about gyro. Everybody was “against” more or less and now, some are awaiting tests results. May be a conservative “against” to send to FAI and may be people will change in the future. Fighting againt technology is not easy for brain. But priority is still to maintain intestest in F3B contests and untill now, we were happy to fly anyway
Best regards
You are correct, got it…
Looks great! Wish you success!
If we will allow gyro, there is no reason to fordbid telemetry which is also not under control of jury/organizer (weak argument to allow gyro-no control who is using that). Why info about vario or altitude would be more “dangerous” for our sport than SAS system which fully control model without any pilot input? Years ago I proposed to make F3B open/unlimited discipline for one year-just test period. Let’s look what will happen in December Lausanne.
Also allowing electronic controller for the winches and laser wind scanner to track the movement of the particles in the air?
Interesting…