Read carefully text proposed by FAI France delegate Bruno Delor. Hey, Isabelle, Sylvain, Patrik, Philippe, Roland, Laurent, Fabrice, Jeremy and the others F3B friends in France try to convince your delegate that this proposal is really really weird. The others also talk to your FAI delegate to strictly reject this funny idea to combine many RC silent flight disciplines to one global or monster World Championship or keep F3J WC at the expense of F3B WC (I don’t want to talk here about future and status of F3J in dead end, already more than 20 years…). Be careful, that’s not joke. Some delegates already agreed this proposal.
6 March 2013
REDUCTION OF NUMBER OF AEROMODELLING CLASSES AND CHAMPIONSHIPS
Minutes of the 2010 CIAM Plenary Meeting (page 26): “It was agreed that the number of championships is now so great that major difficulties are experienced in finding enough organisers, venues, officials and FAI Jury members and there is a greater financial burden on NACs than ever before. Measures must be taken to reduce the number of Championships. Ideas put forward were a reduction in the classes overall; a reduction in championship classes; running combined championships and increasing the interval between Championships.
Bureau was unanimously mandated by Plenary to look at this and generate a proposal for the 2011 Plenary Meeting.“
The 2012 CIAM Bureau Meeting have considered the problem (item 23 of April Bureau Meeting and item 18 of December Bureau Meeting). Kevin Dodd as 2nd Vice-President has been appointed to be the Co-ordinator of the reduction of Championships. An Open Forum will be organised at the next CIAM Plenary Meeting on the basis of a document to be produced by Kevin Dodd.
Actually (see Table in annex), there are for Aeromodelling (without considering the Space models Championships) 16 separate World Championships (some of them with combined classes)covering 23 classes for Seniors (14 of them with the possibility to have a junior as fourth member team) and 7 classes with a specific Junior Championship (5 Junior Championships).
I clearly support the idea of reduction the number of Championships and the number of classes. There are various arguments for that.
There is no other sport with so many World Championships. This is aggravated by the effective low number of aeromodellers doing high level competition. Besides, a so high number is not considered as credible by the Executive Board of the FAI. The number of World Championships is increasing with a number of competitors decreasing slowly in many countries for different reasons and especially because of the cost of the high level competition. It is also more and more difficult to find qualified organisers every year. A so important number of National teams is also difficult to support by the NACs.
See below my suggestions on the subject.
1- Eligibilty for World and Continental Championships
Rules regarding eligibility for World Championships are defined in Volume ABR paragraph A.16: “minimum period of two years from the time the rules were made official during which at least two international contests were held each with a minimum of five FAI members nations participating.“
Moreover, according to the General Section of Sporting Code (paragraph 3.5.31), if there are less than 4 NACs registered, the Air Sport Commission (CIAM for Aeromodelling) decides whether the World Championship will take place and whether or not a title will be awarded.
It is necessary to reinforce the requirements concerning eligibility for World (and Continental) Championships both for a new Championship and existing ones:
-
Existence of an effective and active World Cup, which means a minimum number of International Contests (8 to be discussed) and a minimum number of placed competitors every year (40 to be discussed).
Remarks: the idea is to encourage the Subcommittees to develop World Cups and to be sure there is real competition activity for any World Championship and so not to stay in the situation where World Championship classes are without any real international activity during the year (for example, on the basis of the 2013 FAI Calendar, no Open International contest in F4C, only one in F4H or F5D and two in F3N). In order to attract competitors from other continents, we have to encourage two or three European countries closed geographically closed to organize Open Internationals concentrated on a week in July or August of the year for which there is no World Championship (odd or even year depending the class).
-
Minimum numbers of participating countries and placed competitors for the last two World Championships (15 countries and 35 competitors to be discussed).
Remark : an equivalent specification can be applied to European Championships with for example a minimum of 10 countries and 25 competitors t(o be discussed); regarding other regions, it should stay at four countries with no minimum regarding placed competitors.
So, it will be an useful support to have a data base (number of placed competitors and number of participating countries) for all Aeromodelling (and Space Models) Championships (in each class for combined Championships) for the last 10 years.
Combined World Championships (inside the limit of five classes for each championships as defined in volume ABR paragraph B.24) such as F3C/F3N for RC Helicopter or F4C/F4H for RC Scale have also to be encouraged each time such Championships could be imagined.
Remark : depending of the World Championships which will be maintained, it will be necessary to review the years (odd or even) of the remaining World Championships for example in order to avoid the same year for F3A and F3P World Championships (if F3M World Championship is not maintained).
See below some personal considerations regarding the existing Aeromodelling World Championships and possibilities to reduce their number:
-
F1 (Free Flight): I support the idea to combine the Senior F1A-B-C and the Junior F1A-B-P in the same World Championship as done in F1D and F1E (or F3J and F3K in Radio Controlled). With such combined Senior and Juniors Championships, the Juniors will take more benefit from the Championship getting support and advice from high level experienced Senior competitors. It will also facilitate the job for the NACs.
-
F2 (Control Line): the actual combined World Championships (4 classes) with a possible junior as fourth member team seems to be optimum. The main difficulty is to find experienced organizers and adapted facilities.
-
F3 RC Aerobatics: in my opinion, there is no place for threeseparate World Championships. Regarding the following considerations, it could be suggested to maintain only F3A and F3P World Championships.
F3A: a F3A World Championship hasto be maintained considering the notoriety of that class and the high numbers of countries and competitors competing in this World Championships.
F3P: I consider that it is a very appropriate class for a World Championship considering the fact this class is very attractive for young competitors and for medias. That is also the only Indoor RC class flown which means which could be easily flown all around the world at any time of the year. The idea to run World Championship in February or March is very appropriate.
F3M: we must have the courage to reconsider the decision of the 2012 CIAM Plenary Meeting of eligibility of F3M for a World Championship regarding the important problems existing in that class (level of noise, transportation by air plane of the models). If this championship is maintained, it has to be considered as a combined World Championship with F3A (such as done in F3C /F3N); but this is difficult to consider actually regarding a reasonable duration of the Championships and/or without reconsidering the number of flights in F3A.
Remark : the rules have also to be completed if a World Championship is maintained (use of TBL, semi-final and/or final flights, team placing as for F3A, …).
-
F3 Soaring: there is in my opinion no place for fourseparate World Championships. Regarding the following considerations, I suggest to maintain only the F3J and F3K Championships.
F3B and F3J: those two classes are close. We have to request the Subcommittee to choose between those two classes for a World Championship. I personally suggest to keep the F3J – rather than F3B -which is at the moment a combined Seniors and Juniors.
F3K: the World Championship in that class has to be encouraged because F3K is the most RC sportive class which means potentially attractive for the young modelists. This class has also a real potential for medias such as TV’s.
F3F: I don’t consider that the introduction of a World Championship in that class is a good think. The success of a World Championship will very much depend of the meteorological conditions. I consider that the World Cup is more adapted for that class.
-
F3 Helicopter: both F3C and F3N classes are acceptable for a World Championship if it stays as now on a combined World Championships.
-
F3 Pylon: at the moment the Pylon racing World Championship only concerns the class F3D. The class F5D (Electric Pylon Racing) is combined with the F5B World Championship. In my opinion, it will be more appropriate to combine F5D and F3D in the same Word Championships rather to combine with F5B (no common points except the fact the propulsion is electric for both classes).
-
F4 Scale: we have to see if the introduction of a F4H World Championship class combined with F4C will have a sufficient positive impact regarding the number of participating countries.
-
F5 Electric: see F3 Pylon.
2- Other aspects regarding World or Continental Championships
Periodicity: according to the General Section of Sporting Code (paragraph 3.5.62), “World and Continental Championships should be held approximately every two years in any discipline or class.” In my opinion, we have to stick on that two years cycle and not go to World Championships every four years in order to reduce the number of World Championships to organize every year. For many reasons, Most of the sports have a World Championship every two years and no sport has gone to a four cycle years for their World Championships.
Duration of the Championships: CIAM Bureau must take care number of days for each World Championship in order to minimize duration of each Championship. For example, it could be suggested to reconsider the “reserve” day existing in some World or European Championships.
Choice of the organisers of World and Continental Championships: it is absolutely necessary to implicate the concerned Subcommittee Chairman for each bid of World Championship in order to check that the bids respect the rules requirements regarding facilities, equipments, capabilities of the organiser, … This implication must be done before the CIAM Plenary Meeting which will award the Championship.
Guide of the organiser: it will be very useful to have for each World Championship guide defining the technical requirements to respect. In order to help the organiser, it will be also desirable to define the “tools” necessary for the World Championships (software for the calculation of results and placings, processing card, templates which are necessary for the processing of the models, ,…) with possibility of download them on the CIAM website. Thus has to be done by the concerned Subcommittee under control of the CIAM Bureau.
FAI Organiser Agreement Document: the CIAM Bureaumust take about the reviewing of that document done by the FAI in order to have a document adapted for the Aeromodelling (and Space Models) Word Championships and covering all aspects (technical requirements, amounts for entry fees, banquet, food package, FAI medals and diplomas, …).
3- Annual ranking of nations based on World Championships medals
Such an international ranking (such as done for the Olympic Games, or for the 2009 World Air Games) can be done in application of Volume ABR (paragraph B.2.7). It could be done annually but taking in account the medals awarded in World championships on two years (2011/2012, then 2012/2013 and so on) in order to cover all the World Championships.
For example, it could be given 3 points for a gold medal, 2 points for a silver medal and 1 point for a bronze medal (individual or team placing).
There could be also a specific ranking regarding the juniors results. Number of points allocated could be different considering it is a specific Junior Championships and a Junior placing for classes where there are no specific junior Championship.
4- Airsports Promotion classes (F6)
In my opinion, there is no real place for specific promotional classes. The Subcommittes have to take in account attractiveness for spectators and medias. An alternative solution to the F6 classes is an adaptation of the rules of World Championship classes with local rules for specific category 1 events such World Air Games or World Games (Cali 2013). F6A can be replaced by F3M adapted rules, F6B (AeroMusicals) by F3P adapted rules, F6D (Hand Thrown Gliders) by F3K adapted rules. For Artistic Aerobatic, adaptation of F3M and/or F3N can be considered.
Remark: it is not appropriate to maintain the specific Working Group for Airsports Promotion classes. That is the responsability of the Subcommittees on behalf the CIAM Bureau to suggest adaptations of the rules in order to be more attractive for the public and the medias for specific events.
Bruno Delor
Thank you Roman. What a shame to be informed as is!!!
I have heard way much more stupid things in this life!!!
I have a better suggestion, why not to keep ONLY f3b and just have two scoring results, the F3b one and one with only Duration flight for the ones that can’t fly Distance and Speed?…
Ahh… what a waste of time…
Dear you all,
I have been requested to send to Bruno my remarks on what should be approved and what should be rejected among the proposals. It seems clear that I will not push in Bruno’s direction on this precise point.
A good positiv reaction will be to have a lot of countries registerer in Nardt, China with 15 countries was not enough!
Francisco’s proposal is quite interesting in case… But do we really need to suppress something?
May be someone could try to train a Qatar team with some well known pilots (Beckham)and an FAI contest there with a super green field and big prices !
For sure, today, we receive help from French federation to go to World championship, but if it is a question of money, we prefer to come whitout help than suppression of a category.
It doesn’t sound good to introduce competition between categories. I practice F3B but I love F3J, F3F, F3K…
Bruno is adressing the subject. It is his role in case where a categorie declines. So our best answer is to show that the catégorie is going well (just notice the registration speed on each FAI contest and it’s easy to see if there is interest or not for F3B!)
We will see
Maybe it would be beneficial to invite Bruno Delor to an F3B event and an F3J event and see if he still considers them to be “close”. As a participant in both F3B and F3J World Championships, it is hard for me to imagine F3B being eliminated from World Championship status in favor of F3J. Personally I think all four soaring disciplines are worthy of World Championship status and I’m not sure why we need to change. To my knowledge no World Championship for a soaring discipline has been cancelled due to a lack of bids – I know there has been concern of no bids in recent years, but until the time comes when there are no bids, I think things should be left as is.
Tom
The guy is just an idiot.
He is trying to singlehandedly destroy our respective hobbies. I am not sure what motivates him, either some misguided idea that he is improving the sport, or some hidden dislike for our variety of unique disciplines. It sounds like someone who does not truly understand our hobby, or the joy it gives us.
He has not proven to be too positive for the various disciplines in France by wanting to limit us to a more narrow range of disciplines as well. The subject of limiting the variety of disciplines seems to be important to him.
The only response to such a proposal would be to flat out reject it, it does not merit anything more.
Dear all
For sure we will speak with M.Delor. To be honest, I’m quite surprised by this proposal. I’m in touch with him about french F3B and I got no comments in this direction from him.
So clearly it is not a proposal against F3B. Up to us to prove that F3B is not just another category but THE soaring category…
Please boys,
no flame, no abusive language. Don’t be afraid to sign your comment by your full name. I do that since ever although sometimes it wasn’t comfortable for me.
Just talk to your FAI delegates and assure them that there is nothing so clean quintessence of silent flight art as F3B. I’m sure Tomas Bartovsky, Ralf Decker and the others will never allow to happen such bad things…
Lets try to get something productive on this. Obviously the matter here has to do with the difficulty on organizing events rather with the number of categories to have WCH.
It is even more obvious that the people discussing about this are form the “old” school with “old” solutions to “new” problems. Maybe I am wrong, but communism has proven that is not the right way to go, so, leveling all to the lower level is not an acceptable option…
I think I am not the only one getting the perception that the performance the competitions are getting are not according to the way we manage competitions. Models become faster, launching higher, flying farther… so, really difficult to keep all the contest under control with the desired precision needed.
Some years ago I had the idea to develop new technology to manage this issue. I did talk once with Ralf Decker about the possibilities on using a gps device to track the models and send the signal back to the base station to manage the competition. At that time, the best gps units available were at only 1hz and not fast/precise enough for this purpose.
Since one year I started to do some research on using the new 10hz gps modules available in the market for this exact purpose. I had collected a decent amount of data to prove that it is a feasible solution. Relative accuracy of the system is in the range of +-1m just using the gps signal for positioning. Non to say that with some inertial navigation algorithm this can be improved to a very much tighter range.
Also, there are some new GPS Base Stations that are being developed for cities to add more positioning references to the current GPS receivers, acting as if they were satellites, so… the technology is already developed and it is almost possible to start using them if we do some collective effort to finally put all this together.
But just with the standard 10hz gps modules we have already we are getting a 1m accuracy position. Good enough compared to a human visual reference we have right now.
Personally I have found the limitation on sending that signal back to the ground station. Right now I am using the xBee Pro modules in 2,4Ghz. I have tested several high gain antennas but seems the problem is in the algorithm this modules have inside, as sometimes I get delays or loss of signal when the model is flying at more than 200m.
I have started conversation with one RC Radio systems producer and they are developing a telemetry system that would let me get the 10hz gps data back to ground. In a couple of months I will start testing this new devices.
Just imagine if with a gps+inertial module in the model, connected to the 2,4ghz receivers sending the information back to ground of all models, managing the competition with just one single laptop. PROBLEM SOLVED!!! No need to reduce anything and also possible to add more categories to the calendar.
I will be glad to share all my experience I have developed in this project with anybody that would be interested in using this and pushing it forward to its final execution.
Long life to ALL model flying categories!!!
PS: Right now this can perfectly work for F3F
Hi Roman,
Not found this proposal on the 2013 CIAM agenda.
Where did you find it?
Hi Francisco,
correct lets try to be productive.
Please keep us informed about your system. I’m also testing GPS for years. It’s slowly becoming usable.
Such system will be convenient especially for Distance task (high number of officials at A+B is always issue) and can help us at Duration as another control too. Once we will be able to run any size of F3B contest with about 7 people. CD+PC operator+2 officials at A and B base(speed, button press averaging).
In my opinion GPS for Speed task will be still for long time unusable.
Hi Carles,
above mentioned text is working document to Open Forum agenda.
12. OPEN FORUM
CIAM Bureau decided to introduce an OPEN FORUM session during the Plenary in order to give the Delegates the opportunity to exchange ideas for aeromodelling topics not always related to the Sporting Code. For this year, we will discuss the long standing case about reducing the number of Championships. By email you will receive an introduction prepared by 2nd CIAM VP, Mr. Kevin Dodd.
Change the status of Championships to two levels: World & Continental (Dual Status) for well supported championships; World only for those that never held Continental Championships or frequently cancelled them. In the future when new Championships are again approved by Plenary, these would be given Dual Status for five years after which a review of competitor/country participation would be undertaken.
· Rescind the championship status of those classes identified as having low participation.
· We cease “fast-tracking” Championships.
· We apply a moratorium of, say, four years to allow a Championship rationalisation to take place.
The 2nd Vice-President was appointed to be the Co-ordinator of the Reduction of Championships project and was tasked to work to the timeline in the CIAM President’s email. In response to the GBR Delegate it was agreed that nearer to the time of Plenary, the 2nd Vice-President will give some idea of the state of the project so that the GBR delegate could withdraw its proposals if there were Bureau proposals that were an improvement.
Just simple explanation and let’s call phenomenas by correct names. There is no pressure from FAI CIAM itself to reduce or modify current status of Worldchampionships etc. This activity is solely comming from national associations and mostly by representatives of “old modeller” disciplines which fight for higher part of national budget for them at the expense of the others. Via FAI CIAM it’s clever way to do that. CIAM has duty to react to such proposals.
Ask your CIAM delegate what he is presenting at FAI. Maybe you will be surprised…
Hi Roman,
Don’t worry I’m spanish CIAM delegate, and also F3B pilot 😉
Roman,
If I would manage to get the 10hz positions form the gps back to ground in a reliable way, I think the numbers I am getting would be even good for speed as well. Non to say that if we put some other extra sensors combined with the gps position (altimeter, accelerometers and gyros), we can increase the accuracy of the system quite a lot with a minor effort, keeping the size of the unit in a reasonable magnitude for the f3 models. (f3 as we are not only trying to solve the f3b issue, but all of the f3 as well)
The xBee modules are not the good ones for this task, so, it has to be something implemented in the RC radio system, with dual antenna, to prevent the directionality issue, to not to create more frequencies collisions in the air and reducing size and weight in the model.
As said, a reliable RC Radio/Telemetry supplier is already working in this project with me, as soon I get the Tx Module and the Rx they are preparing for me, I will be able to make some more advanced testing and deliver the final conclusion.
More later…
Roman,
Thank you for posting this. I believe this may very well backfire on the original author. This sort of movement against FAI soaring events will hopefully serve to unite us in an effort to show that we love our sports and they are neither redundant, nor lacking support from the soaring community. Each FAI soaring event is unique in the skill set required to compete at the world level and each deserves to have their place in crowning a World Champion.
In full scale soaring there are multiple classes based on wingspan (Open, 15m, Standard, etc), there is precedent set in the FAI that soaring in its many forms require different skills and different WC’s for each. I don’t believe it is much of a stretch to justify the existence of F3B, F3F, F3J and F3K based on the comparison to full scale alone.
Let us all make sure our voices are heard and ensure that our soaring delegates get that message….Don’t kill ANY of the soaring events!!
-Aaron Valdes
Hi Roman,
Yes, Carles is one of the reference people in Spain ragarding F3b. He, in between with a couple more, are the responsible of the F3b performance in Spain since almost 15 years.
God bless the f3b in Spain!
So, did someone knows if motions proposed by the “Open Forum” could be voted during the next CIAM session or should they been added in the next CIAM meeting agenda before being voted ??? Not clear for me.
Hi, Carles, hope we will fly together in may contests this year ! We are impatient to see spanish pilots (and others) soon!
Kevin Dodd as 2nd Vice-President has been appointed to be the Co-ordinator of the reduction of Championships. An Open Forum will be organised at the next CIAM Plenary Meeting on the basis of a document to be produced by Kevin Dodd.
We are waiting Mr. Dodd’s document.
Nothing to vote now. Much to discuss.
This open forum must end with a proposal of CIAM reorganization, not only championships also subcommittees.
Do you know that there are some categories that you can be world champion in a morning? 😮
In soaring events we need 4-6 days !!! (in both cases with the same number of competitors)
There are several things to change.
In soaring we can study how to make the WCh. together. Not simultaneous, but maybe consecutive in the same place. (only for speaking, not a proposal !!!) 😉
Thing of this year, some pilots/teams will move from Denmark (F3K) to Germany (F3B)
Hi Carles,
During the discussion, please be sure to point out that 5 days for a soaring world championship is important in that it more likely tests the pilots over a variety of conditions. Rarely is the weather the same over 5 days.
Regarding the consecutive (or simultaneous) World Championship concept, I fear that it will be difficult to get bids for that format. Organizing a one month long event (for all 4 soaring disciplines) I think would be intimidating to even the most enthusiastic of countries. Even just hosting 2 events would be intimidating.
FWIW
Tom
Hi Tom,
I fully agree that the soaring world championships need at least 5-6 days.
An important consideration is that we are not professional athletes, it’s hard being away from home (or job) two or three weeks.
And here we are… wasting time hearing insanity that will end up in hurting badly the performance of the sport.
Guys… I propose to reduce the number of meetings and paperwork done in the Federations and go out there to practice the sport.
You only develop scheisses when you talk without knowing what exactly is happening in a WCH. Only the ten top pilots in all categories have the right to give any opinion on this!
But from my experience on how these things are managed by these people, I am afraid we are lost!
What it is going to happen is that Munich competition will become the yearly unofficial F3b WCH, that is what it is right now, The best of the bests!!!
It is nice to know that there are some others having the same interest to jump over the limitations and develop the necessary technology to make it happen.
http://modeltracker.blogspot.ca/
Who else???
PS: If we manage to make it happen? will the FAI still have issues with the number of categories to have WCH?
Hi Francisco,
this looks interesting although informations are scanty. No idea how it will work during F3B Distance task; 800m one direction and 800m another direction. Let’s see.
Hi Roman,
Well, maybe not the best for f3b as it is now, but this proves that there are some interesting things happening in the good direction. So, not only having to suffer the bad ones…
In the coming month I will have updates on mine and will publish something.
Have fun!
Francisco, thank you for keeping tabs on this device. The technology has existed for some time to make a small position sensor for our models. With the new popularity of the 2.4GHz datalink, I can envision a time in the next few years where we can automate the turn signals for speed and distance.
-Aaron
OK, many words were written about topic of this article (look also here). My intention to inform F3X public about strange things behind FAI CIAM curtain was accomplished.
Just only tiny detail. I found that Bruno Delor is experienced control-line modeller since XY years. Compare this two paragraphs from his proposal.
F2 (Control Line): the actual combined World Championships (4 classes) with a possible junior as fourth member team seems to be optimum. The main difficulty is to find experienced organizers and adapted facilities.
and
F3B and F3J: those two classes are close. We have to request the Subcommittee to choose between those two classes for a World Championship. I personally suggest to keep the F3J – rather than F3B -which is at the moment a combined Seniors and Juniors.
It’s always pleasant to start day with some good joke. Take care…
And… I am the political uncorrect guy of the circus… so…
Even being one of the best ones… this is not the best stupid thing I have heard in my life… so, he is not going to stablish any World Wide Record with this…
Here my innocent questions: Why Power always atrtact the most stupid people?
Have fun training and breaking world records guys…
Roman,
Thanks for providing appropriate publicity on this issue. I very much agree with the prior comments that suggest keeping the current status quo as each of the current soaring WC events merit their unique existence.
If there is a requirement to reduce the number of WC events being held, I would suggest that they look at the statistics for prior events and consider deleting any event that has averaged less than 50 senior competitors over the prior three WC competitions. In the case of team only events, then put the bar for deletion at 17 countries. This is a more objective measurement of world wide popularity of the event at a WC level than just stating that a particular WC category is “similar” to another WC category.
Joe,
If you do that, you are playing exactky the game they want. They will have enough arguments to kill F3k and F3f, as they have only 1 WCH history, for example…
No need to put criteria on how to “DESTROY” the practice of the sport. If a WCH has to dissapear is because there are no pilots participating on it.
Keep in mind that the first duty of a Federation is to “PROMOTE” the practice of the sport…
Just with this you can level them to move back in that attitude!
The “constructive” way to place what you said, it not reducing the number of categories, but keeping them as they are and just allowing the organization of the WCH if you reach a minimum of participants.
In this way, you are not destroying anything and you are preventing to have WCH’s with minimum activity. Lets keep the evolution to do the rest of the work…
Francisco,
I think that we are stating similar things. The average number of participants for the first F3F WC was more than 50 if my memory is accurate. I am certain that this was true for F3K. Soaring disciplines are fairly well attended at a WC event. It would be of interest to look through other aeromodeling WC events to get a comparison of relative popularity.
Not so certain as to whether some of the F2* WC categories meet my arbitrarily defined specification though… 🙂
The bigger question is whether some WC categories have become little flown, and whether the little flown categories are worthy of a WC. Should there be a “critical mass” that defines the suitability for a WC? And, should it be measured via WC attendance or via other participation measures?
Joe,
Yes we are, in general is the same, but in particular is a big difference.
I do not see any issues having all of them WCH, why not? Where is the problem with it? So far nobody has explained why it is needed to reduce the number of categories with WCH. If I do not get a proper explanation to this, I am suggesting to propose the F3p, Paper Hand Glider Competition, just to add one category more to the schedule.
I am not happy seeing that we are fighting against us on who has to survive… Only “God” should have that right (and I am not talking in any religious meaning, ok? God = Evolution).
But if this issue has to be addressed, the way to go is to provide opportunities to the ones that are most active and keep the door open to the ones that are struggling.
For our case, F3b and F3j are two very successful ones and there is no need to choose between them.
Obviously this guy, the one that created this discussion, has not idea on what he is talking about. I do not want to call him ignorant, but as Forest Gump said, “Stupid is somebody that says stupidity!”
So… anybody here is able to clearly specify where is the need to reduce the number of categories holding WCH? other than a stupid suggestion?
In rcgroups people are discussing about the need to send more people to the FAI-CIAM meetings to propose more regulations… here the post I placed there:
______________________________________________________________________________
And, in these times of the Internet, is it a real need to move in person to have all those meetings to discuss about those topics? Wasting resources for not too much positive income?
Why not to suggest to FAI to update itself and create an ONLINE system where all these guys can virtually meet and discuss things but in a more intelligent and sustainable way? This can facilitate everything for everybody and all voices will be heard.
Andddddddd… A lot of money coming from our pockets will not be wasted in bureaucracy, flights, hotels and buffets, and the WCH’s will have more fundings to be organized.
So, from here, I claim for a more Ecologic Friendly FAI, for a better world and prevention of global warming! AND A LOT OF WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS!!!
For a Green FAI!!!
Hi Francisco,
not bad idea at all. I will talk to CIAM RC Soaring Sub-committee Chairman and Czech delegate Tomas Bartovsky about this idea. He is very wise guy. We will not change it tomorrow but once we have to start…
You will be responsible for technical solution of such event. Start to work on that (smile)
For the record, the US wants to send a representative to oppose more regulations and more importantly oppose cancellation of World Championship events (Soaring events in particular)! From what I understand some of these meetings can take unexpected turns, so we think it is important to have someone there in person to help make sure something undesirable does not happen. . .
Tom
Tom,
I have seen that you have started a movement to collect funds to send this delegate to CIAM. What I would appreciate is if you can provide us with the total cost of that intention, then we will compare that with the cost of one WCH and see clearly where the money is going.
Please, tell your delegate also to propose there to idea to STOP personal meetings and embrace the new era of technology, fairness and sustainability.
For a better FAI, more “sport friendly” and less bureaucracy.
Roman,
I hope this has been a good idea… If we are able to manage our banks accounts, do our tax declarations, have video conferences world wide and have international discussion forums that connect all of us, Do you really think we need to keep the format of administrative offices like they were designed when not even the telephone was there?
No no no… THIS HAS TO CHANGE AS WELL!!!
I also propose that FAI and every NAC that depends from FAI should not spend more than 1% of the money they manage in administrative functions.
In this times of Global Financial Crisis, WE ALL have to do the effort on supporting the load of the situation.
Regarding the technical responsible to implement the system, “Kein Problem” at all, I have a second good idea, every proposal that is placed to be approved, it will automatically open a virtual flight simulation competition… the one that wins it is the one that decides what to do. 🙂 Fair enough?
Here one good as well,
Why not to ask CIAM-FAI to broadcast live online the meeting to all of us? Then we will be able to see what exactly are they discussing about us there?
This is fairly easy to do starting Tomorrow! If we can broadcast live streaming for WCH, why not also for the CIAM meetings?
I claim for “The Fundamental Transformation of the FAI” because, “YES… WE CAN!!!”
Thanks Roman for bringing this to people’s attention. I had trouble believing what I read when I came across this thread. I think the overall discussion on this topic has gone in the right direction. Firstly to try and understand the underlying reason for the FAI (or a particular delegate) to want to reduce the number of WC’s. This could be from a financial or organisational perspective. Weird that F3J and F3B are suggested as needing sacrifice, as I am confident that both of them must rank amongst the most attended events.
Secondly IF a reduction in the number of WC’s is required, the reason for doing so must be explained and validated by the FAI. After that the selection criteria must be agreed through a vote and should be purely objective. The proposed list is riddled with personal opinion. For example if attendance is a factor the soaring classes are in a fairly good position compared to some other categories.
It is also important to note that we are passionate about the soaring classes, but this proposal would impact on all flying categories, and it may be interesting to raise awareness of this proposal to anyone we know in any other flying category. Please consider the visibility and associated reaction it will get then!!
I agree with Tom’s position. These types of meetings can have surprising outcomes. I think it is important that each flying body that is allowed to attend and is able should send someone that is up to date on this subject. After all, someone needs to be present to be heard.
I think the idea of a ‘sustainable FAI’ and using remote conferencing/voting is a very good one. It will ensure more people with a vote will actually use it and new ideas will be more difficult to ‘sneak past the masses’; and of course it will save money, which is likely one of the reasons this whole discussion was started in the first place.
Hi Roman,
Seems that some people are not able to get the sarcasms of some of my comments.
We are lost…
What do you mean Franciso? – no paper airplane championship class proposal! so sad…
The US soaring community did raise the money to send our CIAM rep for soaring to the meeting. Cost will be around $2,000 USD. So the idea of virtual meetings does seem like a good way for NAC’s to reduce their costs. It will take some thought to get a viable format, but certainly it seems possible. Certainly better than killing World Championships.
Tom
*Francisco
Hi Tom,
Nice to hear you were successful in this initiative, it is inspiring to see that people still have some reaction against these serious things.
As you said, just the fact that people are spending time writing proposals like this, means that, maybe, we are too late to react.
It is a matter on being sensible to some historic events to extrapolate what is going to come. For example, Hittler was an stupid talking stupid things in a bar full of crap. If you do not stop them at the right time, it is like a virus that will spread everywhere.
What frustrates me more is to see, in any places, how the governments, in any field, drives their actions going straight against the society they supposedly lead. What kind of insane behavior is developed in between them when they get free flights and accommodation to discuss in secret general interest issues? Can you explain that to me, please?
It would be good if in the next CIAM meeting it is proposed to have OPEN-ONLINE voting, discussion, broadcasting, just in the format of webinars/goto-meetings we do in other activities.
Sarcasms when I use typical politics slogans against any kind of corrupted political behavior.
Will the US soaring representative have an agenda with proposals to rise there we ca know in advance? Will he be able to keep us updated on what is going on there in the forum?
Thanks Tom, appreciate your sensitivity on this issue.
Like the new Pope, Francisco the 1st from Argentina! 😉
Now that we have raised the money to get him there, we need to make sure he is clear on what we want him to say! Over the next few weeks I expect we will be having those discussions.
Since I don’t really understand the rational for wanting to cancel World Championship events, it is hard for me to recommend suggesting changing anything on the competition side. I support the four soaring classes we have. I support the two year format as well as the separate event format.
If the motivation for cancellation of World Championships is the financial burden on NAC’s to send national teams to compete, then I think we need to look at ways of reducing costs. I know for the USA, the cost to our NAC to send teams to World Championships is only about a 1/3rd of our FAI budget. Another 1/3rd is used for fees for our NAC to belong to the FAI (it isn’t clear to me who gets this money – the FAI or the NAA (our NAC) – the AMA represents the NAA for aeromodeling). The rest is to pay for travel to meetings and administrative personnel. If it is similar for other countries, the first thing we need to look at is how to reduce the 2/3rds of the budget that isn’t directly related to sending teams to World Championships. Virtual meetings would go a long way to cutting travel costs. The fee structure could be altered. My understanding is we pay a large fee since the AMA has a large membership (around 150,000 members). However only a small percentage actually participate in FAI events. If our fees could be based on actual FAI participants, I suspect that would go a long way to cutting our costs. These are the issues that I think need to be discussed if indeed the cost to the NAC’s is the primary driver for cutting World Championships.
Tom
Tom,
I hope that there are a lot more other people that share our point of view on this issue. It looks crazy for me that 1/3 of the budget goes to bureaucracy. Something is going wrong then, obviously it is an inefficient system the one currently on practice.
Yo said it perfectly, and I tried to say that any federation is just an association that had the privilege to be the first one that was created in that field and were given the right to be the only one that can manage those things. But as said also, as ALL associations, they need to present their “founding documents” to comply with the association regulations that gives them their entity. When related to sports, one of the first ones is that they were created to “promote” the practice of the sport.
Said this, when you see that they are spending 1/3 of their budget in “paperwork stuff”, it is obvious that they are “mutating” to something totally different than for what they were created, so, if something needs to be modified “first”, much urgently than anything else, is the way they manage their administrative functions.
We are talking about a Federation that manages High-End World-Wide Competitions. In the nature of competition is the need to apply the “latest technology” in the practice of the sport in the reach of success. I encourage the Federations to “embrace” that attitude also as part of their existence.
What would you think if you see a FAT guy managing High-Performance athletes? Something is wrong here, no?
Well, This is that I see here, a Lazy FAT Federation that is willing to keep managing high performers… If they want to be successful in that role, they will have to look at themselves before they get the “MORAL RIGHT” to give any opinion on what we should do.
The technology is there, we are currently using it everyday for almost anything in our lives… It is a matter to let them decide to apply it, and as it is a “soft” change, this can be implemented straight away, no excuses, no arguments, like Nike says:
“Just do it!”
So… my dear lazy, expensive, inefficient FAI, time to move your ass, STOP wasting our money on developing ways to go against us, and do something positive/intelligent if you want to gain us again. You have lost us, it is up to you to revert it.
Soo.. you ass is too big for our pockets, but not that much for our feet, so, be ready for a long queue willing to kick it!
Ahhhhhh sarcasm again… I can’t fight against this… but I have no problem to fight for almost anything else! why? because it is worth with!
Hi Tom,
it’s admirable how fast and effective in decision making can be relative small(?) F3X group of people in US. Terry Edmonds goes to Lausanne! I’v always been a bit envious when watching all that raffles and general support for few top pilots from “ordinary” blokes. Doesn’t work here.
Hi Francisco,
I like these hot-blooded guys like you (wink). In many aspects you are right. Any system can be always more effective and huge organizations are first-in-row candidates for diet, no doubt. I was asking Tomáš Bartovský to pass by your proposals regarding “Green FAI”.
I’m sure there are many blokes in FAI CIAM which have done HUGE&GOOD WORK not only for our sports (F3X) but also for other disciplines (let’s don’t be so conceited).
We will not solve these issues from here. Apply in Argentina’s NAC for FAI CIAM RC silent flight sub-committee membership and let’s change it from inside?
Hi Roman,
I will accept, at this point, to be considered a hot-blooded guy, even if that is not the best description to my attitude on this. I will apply some of the sarcasms to me as well!
For sure I am assuming that there are a lot of good people in the FAI doing great work there, but we are not talking here about the Maradona’s playing in the team, we are talking about the performance of the selection! If you have 11 Maradona’s in the team and you are not able to win, then, something is going wrong and has to be changed. Agree?
I have read in some other forums that we “should not” take any care on the document presented by this guy suggesting the destruction of some categories.
WHAT AN INSANE ATTITUDE!
I do not care about this document and neither I do about this guy, what it makes me stand up and put myself under evidence is the FACT that the FAI is OPEN to HEAR any kind of NEW IDEAS facing in that direction.
What are we doing? Are we trying to have a COOL FAI OPEN TO ANYTHING? No no no… the role of FAI is to be OPEN only to IDEAS THAT PROMOTE THE PRACTICE OF THE SPORT!!! Anything else should be a BIG AND STRONG CLOSE ATTITUDE!!! THAT IS THE ROLE OF FAI!!! Agree?
So…
Happy to hear that we are starting a movement to have a MODERN, SUSTAINABLE, GREEN, GLOBAL FAI. Not only for the ones that can assist the meetings, but for all the WORLD.
I am not aware if Argentina has a role in the CIAM so far, but if we go for a new online system, then a better and world wide FAI will be possible.
For a Better FAI is not enough, we should aim for the BEST FAI possible.
Roman, a couple of items:
You say that we are not changing anything from here? sure about that? 😉
You know, and if not, that I am not living in Argentina. In the way federations are organized, that is a physical limitation to your suggestion to change things from “inside”. So, rather than sit and see what is going on from outside, I try to influence the people that are in the position to do so, to feel some “external” support and make the move we need to be done.
Now that everything is becoming GLOBAL, we have a Global Market, a Global Warming, a Global Cooling? even a Global Crisis, come on!!!, it is time for a Global FAI, then you will have me INSIDE protecting the fair practice of the sport. Meanwhile, I will be here, in “THE iCLOUD”, from “iABOVE”, Like “iGOD”, careing on what mortals, with all their defects, are doing! 😉
Have fun there!
Hi ROMAN, TOM
The four french correspondants (F3F, F3B, F3K, F3J) with french federation received preliminary answer: Proposal which started this thread was clearly personal thinking of our NAC representativ B.D …
His personal goal is to have discussion about Championship’s better management and cost saving (for FAI and local budgets)and not to target against gliders or specific catgories. Gliders categories have been taken as example and no more. Other categories with low paticipation (internal and participation to WC) and high cost might also be taken into account for these kind of concerns.
Nice if TOM can attend but no proof yet that there will be much discussion about these items during CIAM open forum ? Hope that you won’t spend time for nothing.
I am afraid that there will be theory on one side about what should be improved and how could we save some money with a better management… and theory could sound good sometimes
On the other side, when it will be time for proposal, with real data, category names and votes, and who supports one direction or another, the sound could change…
As long as countries will candidate for WC organization and as long as there are enough coutires coming … and enough competition activity, risk seems limited. How long if the policy moves from amateur sport activity to ???
In France we use to say “no smoke without fire” so stay tunned and vigilant
Hi Sylvain,
thank you very much to keep us informed. I guess we are and we will stay from now very watchful! I have some new info for all of you interested in. Stay tunned.
Hi all,
As more comes to light, things seem to be more advanced than expected and I am getting the impression that they are really in the necessity to act quick.
At this point, we need to think twice what is going on here and reformulate the questions and possible reactions.
Seems that the idea of “releasing” some power with a “Green FAI” is not in the best interest of them, as usual, but where are we heading if we do not change anything?
You know, I am one of those mortals that can not really understand/process some things I see in everyday life, but the first thing it comes to my mind with all this story is this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeGe7lVrXb0
Have a great day!